expirediconian | Staff posted Dec 03, 2023 07:32 PM
Item 1 of 2
Item 1 of 2
expirediconian | Staff posted Dec 03, 2023 07:32 PM
Onkyo TX-NR7100 9.2-Channel 8K/4K Network A/V Receiver
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And you can't align speakers from so any positions in a room. Acoustics simply doesn't work like that. Moving speakers or moving the listener throws everything off.
You get an average and get it as close as possible, multiple subs helps here as well and they can fill in for the other positions, nothing is perfect but I find this whole process really helped in my particular setup. This is pretty much how DLBC works as well. I don't think anyone would be shelling out $500 for a DLBC license if it didn't have an advantage over simple phase controls.
You get an average and get it as close as possible, multiple subs helps here as well and they can fill in for the other positions, nothing is perfect but I find this whole process really helped in my particular setup. This is pretty much how DLBC works as well. I don't think anyone would be shelling out $500 for a DLBC license if it didn't have an advantage over simple phase controls.
I'll paste it here again…
My question is…
outside of the crossover "range" of the sub and mains (where they overlap), does any alignment (phase or time) even matter? If so, please explain how it would even be perceivable.
I'll paste it here again…
My question is…
outside of the crossover "range" of the sub and mains (where they overlap), does any alignment (phase or time) even matter? If so, please explain how it would even be perceivable.
If you watch the video I posted before you can simulate time alignment and can answer that yourself. Time aligning subs only (that video doesn't go into speaker to sub alignment and didn't measure the speakers at all - only two subs) can reduce dips in the frequency response across multiple listening positions.
I don't have a technical explanation of why that is the case, but it certainly was the case for my two subs as well. As mentioned before adjusting just phase can affect time but it seems to affect time non linearly so it does not seem to have the same effect as time delay you'd find on a minidsp or avr, etc.
If you watch the video I posted before you can simulate time alignment and can answer that yourself. Time aligning subs only (that video doesn't go into speaker to sub alignment and didn't measure the speakers at all - only two subs) can reduce dips in the frequency response across multiple listening positions.
I don't have a technical explanation of why that is the case, but it certainly was the case for my two subs as well. As mentioned before adjusting just phase can affect time but it seems to affect time non linearly so it does not seem to have the same effect as time delay you'd find on a minidsp or avr, etc.
I'm satisfied by your explanation that you simply can't explain how or why phase and "time", when it comes to this overlap region of a sub and main speaker, or two subwoofers, are "different" from one another.
I would be interested in before/after double blind testing of a speaker/subwoofer system that was calibrated by the automated acoustic "distance" measurement system of Dirac or audyssey setup, where someone "did or did not" attempt to further "align" them, to see if anything made an audible "improvement" or it's simply confirmation bias. I suspect the later. I'd also like to see an example of a speaker/subwoofer system where someone was able to overcome physics and make them in perfect "alignment" in more than one seat.
I'm satisfied by your explanation that you simply can't explain how or why phase and "time", when it comes to this overlap region of a sub and main speaker, or two subwoofers, are "different" from one another.
I would be interested in before/after double blind testing of a speaker/subwoofer system that was calibrated by the automated acoustic "distance" measurement system of Dirac or audyssey setup, where someone "did or did not" attempt to further "align" them, to see if anything made an audible "improvement" or it's simply confirmation bias. I suspect the later. I'd also like to see an example of a speaker/subwoofer system where someone was able to overcome physics and make them in perfect "alignment" in more than one seat.
I don't care whether a 1khz tone and a 30hz tone is out of phase. I do care if a 40hz tone on one sub is out of phase with the second sub, again adjusting phase knob can help that but then another frequency can be out of phase creating cancellations or other issues again. If you are having issues like SBIR which is very common in midbass, time delay and using multiple subs in various locations can help with this as well.
I do absolutely run Dirac AFTER getting everything aligned as close as possible on the sub/minidsp side. The problem comes up when you have multiple subs - to get the most out of them and actually fill in nulls between various seats you really need to adjust the time (and EQ) individually which Dirac without DLBC can not do on it's own.
I never said they were perfectly aligned in all seats - I said the response was much better across multiple seats and I of course confirmed this with REW before/after measurements.
I can disable the filters and delays on the fly and it sounds much better when it's enabled, when I can feel the impact of gunshots in my chest with the delay or other filters active and it's much less impactful with it disabled - I don't need a double blind test for that. Of course I'm not opposed to it.
I don't care whether a 1khz tone and a 30hz tone is out of phase. I do care if a 40hz tone on one sub is out of phase with the second sub, again adjusting phase knob can help that but then another frequency can be out of phase creating cancellations or other issues again. If you are having issues like SBIR which is very common in midbass, time delay and using multiple subs in various locations can help with this as well.
I do absolutely run Dirac AFTER getting everything aligned as close as possible on the sub/minidsp side. The problem comes up when you have multiple subs - to get the most out of them and actually fill in nulls between various seats you really need to adjust the time (and EQ) individually which Dirac without DLBC can not do on it's own.
I never said they were perfectly aligned in all seats - I said the response was much better across multiple seats and I of course confirmed this with REW before/after measurements.
I can disable the filters and delays on the fly and it sounds much better when it's enabled, when I can feel the impact of gunshots in my chest with the delay or other filters active and it's much less impactful with it disabled - I don't need a double blind test for that. Of course I'm not opposed to it.
This is exactly why I asked you that question like 3 pages ago that you just finally answered. Go back and you'll see I wrote something like, "first question…". I copied and pasted that question in several responses and it was totally ignored. I had planned to take this one step at a time, but I'm honestly worn out at this point.
You hit the nail on the head! You can adjust phase at the xover freq after time aligning the two speakers, but it will cause other phase issues. Exactly. Like I said…a single speaker driver's phase response changes all throughout its frequency range. You are wasting your time trying to "align" a pair of drivers that will never "align" at more than one crossover region…on purpose…and several other points by simple happenstance.
Show us a loudspeaker where the woofer and tweeter are perfectly in "time" and phase all throughout their frequency range. It doesn't exist. Trying to do it with mains and subwoofers is also impossible.
Lastly, any changes you make are triggering your confirmation bias. If you think you e made an improvement in phase/time alignment, you're guaranteed to hear it because of confirmation bias.
This is exactly why I asked you that question like 3 pages ago that you just finally answered. Go back and you'll see I wrote something like, "first question…". I copied and pasted that question in several responses and it was totally ignored. I had planned to take this one step at a time, but I'm honestly worn out at this point.
You hit the nail on the head! You can adjust phase at the xover freq after time aligning the two speakers, but it will cause other phase issues. Exactly. Like I said…a single speaker driver's phase response changes all throughout its frequency range. You are wasting your time trying to "align" a pair of drivers that will never "align" at more than one crossover region…on purpose…and several other points by simple happenstance.
Show us a loudspeaker where the woofer and tweeter are perfectly in "time" and phase all throughout their frequency range. It doesn't exist. Trying to do it with mains and subwoofers is also impossible.
When I say align subs to the mains that is of course at the crossover region to try and prevent cancellations - that would be low frequencies.
When I say time align subs to subs that may be a bit of a misnomer as you aren't actually aligning them perfectly - you are trying to get the best response in the given seating areas. The sound arriving at the listening positions at the same time is not really the goal (no one is going to notice 5ms difference in low frequencies especially but they will notice a 10db drop from 35-50hz for example.).
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As far as confirmation bias - I can't really refute that. However I can say that others had commented how the impact had improved after I set up the MiniDSP and I did not tell them I had changed anything - nothing controlled of course.
It's just like anything - buy new speakers.. Are they really better going from $100 speakers to $5000 speakers or do you think they are better because they cost more?
Add some acoustic panels - did it really make a difference or did you spend hundreds or thousands of dollars for nothing that room correction couldn't have taken care of?
I mean it really depends how far you want to go with all that, I'm happier with my setup now compared to before the MiniDSP and that's good enough for me.
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When I say align subs to the mains that is of course at the crossover region to try and prevent cancellations - that would be low frequencies.
When I say time align subs to subs that may be a bit of a misnomer as you aren't actually aligning them perfectly - you are trying to get the best response in the given seating areas. The sound arriving at the listening positions at the same time is not really the goal (no one is going to notice 5ms difference in low frequencies especially but they will notice a 10db drop from 35-50hz for example.).
--
As far as confirmation bias - I can't really refute that. However I can say that others had commented how the impact had improved after I set up the MiniDSP and I did not tell them I had changed anything - nothing controlled of course.
It's just like anything - buy new speakers.. Are they really better going from $100 speakers to $5000 speakers or do you think they are better because they cost more?
Add some acoustic panels - did it really make a difference or did you spend hundreds or thousands of dollars for nothing that room correction couldn't have taken care of?
I mean it really depends how far you want to go with all that, I'm happier with my setup now compared to before the MiniDSP and that's good enough for me.
That's all that matters! ✌🏼
The open box prices for Denons and the Pioneers were way higher for some reason.
The Pioneer Elite 305 is basically identical to the Onkyo, except the Onkyo supports more audio standards and has some other features the Pioneer is lacking. Given that they weigh in at exactly the same weight, I'm sure the amps are identical.
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